Comments on: Is Python the Apple of Programming Languages? http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/ A Finn in Silicon Valley - Adventures in Technology Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:58:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.5 By: PLC programming http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-21954 PLC programming Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:29:50 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-21954 It’s not just high school students anymore. A lot of older people, myself included are having to make the decision of trying to find work in our current field or go back to school and try something different. Cost is a big deal, especially since scholarships are few and far between for older people starting or trying to finish their degree program. It’s not just high school students anymore. A lot of older people, myself included are having to make the decision of trying to find work in our current field or go back to school and try something different. Cost is a big deal, especially since scholarships are few and far between for older people starting or trying to finish their degree program.

]]> By: lorg http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-15894 lorg Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:05:35 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-15894 I've read your post and the comments here and on reddit, and to tell you the truth, I'm not sure. As I currently see things: 1. Apple successfully branded itself as young, polished, fashionable 2. Apple delivers on these fronts: It is indeed very polished and in fashion. 3. Many people buy Apple today for these things. With Python, it's different, although lately it's getting a bit more similar. It seems to me that Python is becoming more fashionable (especially with django! :). Still, without data to back any claims, I really can't say "why people adopt Python". I’ve read your post and the comments here and on reddit, and to tell you the truth, I’m not sure.
As I currently see things:
1. Apple successfully branded itself as young, polished, fashionable
2. Apple delivers on these fronts: It is indeed very polished and in fashion.
3. Many people buy Apple today for these things.

With Python, it’s different, although lately it’s getting a bit more similar. It seems to me that Python is becoming more fashionable (especially with django! :) . Still, without data to back any claims, I really can’t say “why people adopt Python”.

]]> By: j_king http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-15891 j_king Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:18:18 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-15891 @Heikki: Don't get me wrong, Python is certainly my language of choice for 90% of what I do in the day at work. When I need to do some common-place task or get some system working, it's right there and I can generally go from prototype to production with a few extra imports and some logging. It's nice. There's cases like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch where the Python solution is workable, but it's not pretty by any means. I just meant to illustrate that it's possible not to gag on the visual differences between languages. Python can get pretty ugly too. @Heikki: Don’t get me wrong, Python is certainly my language of choice for 90% of what I do in the day at work. When I need to do some common-place task or get some system working, it’s right there and I can generally go from prototype to production with a few extra imports and some logging. It’s nice.

There’s cases like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch where the Python solution is workable, but it’s not pretty by any means.

I just meant to illustrate that it’s possible not to gag on the visual differences between languages. Python can get pretty ugly too.

]]> By: Heikki Toivonen http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-15883 Heikki Toivonen Wed, 16 Sep 2009 16:21:32 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-15883 @Paddy3118 & Sykora: I guess I should have concentrated more on the look and feel of the products Apple produces vs Python the language, rather than confuse it with the company etc. I also don't like Apple-the-company practices, and for various reasons don't currently own any Apple products (I have in the past, and may still in the future). @j_king: I've been programming full time in Python for 6 years, so I guess it is taking me a long time to find Python ugly ;) I also don't mind reaching for C to do some specific thing Python itself is not good at, but I need to do that rarely. I guess a big part in this is what you are using Python for. For what it is worth, I can't stand Lisp's syntax - the parenthesis drive me crazy. Sure it is superficial, but when the syntax makes your eyes bleed every time try to look at a piece of code it is hard to get past that. It is good to hear you've been able to move on from Python, though. I don't necessarily want to move away from Python, but I would like to find languages that I enjoy working with as much I enjoy Python. @Paddy3118 & Sykora: I guess I should have concentrated more on the look and feel of the products Apple produces vs Python the language, rather than confuse it with the company etc. I also don’t like Apple-the-company practices, and for various reasons don’t currently own any Apple products (I have in the past, and may still in the future).

@j_king: I’ve been programming full time in Python for 6 years, so I guess it is taking me a long time to find Python ugly ;) I also don’t mind reaching for C to do some specific thing Python itself is not good at, but I need to do that rarely. I guess a big part in this is what you are using Python for. For what it is worth, I can’t stand Lisp’s syntax – the parenthesis drive me crazy. Sure it is superficial, but when the syntax makes your eyes bleed every time try to look at a piece of code it is hard to get past that. It is good to hear you’ve been able to move on from Python, though. I don’t necessarily want to move away from Python, but I would like to find languages that I enjoy working with as much I enjoy Python.

]]> By: j_king http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-15882 j_king Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:48:08 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-15882 I used to think that way after a few months of working with Python. But its been a few years now and I've found most of the warts. At first I just turned a blind eye, but now I just find it ugly. Syntactically, of all the dynamic procedural OO languages, Python is the most aesthetically pleasing. But that means really little in the end. Where Python gets frustrating is when you reach its limitations or are limited by its biases. Usually by then you have to reach for C or work around it with some pretty clever code. And that's just annoying. I'm starting to move to Lisp more these days. Its syntax is even cleaner and rigorously structured. The underlying structure of the program isn't hidden behind clever syntax. I'm not limited by arbitrary implementations of types: I can invent true types rather than just giving new names and behaviours to old ones. I can easily extend the language to naturally encompass the language of my problem domain. It's dynamic and it compiles to machine code! The only thing I miss in Lisp is a library as comprehensive as 'os.' So in answer to your question: yes, one can use another language after working with Python. It just takes a few years for the euphoria to rub off. ;) I used to think that way after a few months of working with Python.

But its been a few years now and I’ve found most of the warts. At first I just turned a blind eye, but now I just find it ugly.

Syntactically, of all the dynamic procedural OO languages, Python is the most aesthetically pleasing. But that means really little in the end.

Where Python gets frustrating is when you reach its limitations or are limited by its biases. Usually by then you have to reach for C or work around it with some pretty clever code. And that’s just annoying.

I’m starting to move to Lisp more these days. Its syntax is even cleaner and rigorously structured. The underlying structure of the program isn’t hidden behind clever syntax. I’m not limited by arbitrary implementations of types: I can invent true types rather than just giving new names and behaviours to old ones. I can easily extend the language to naturally encompass the language of my problem domain. It’s dynamic and it compiles to machine code!

The only thing I miss in Lisp is a library as comprehensive as ‘os.’

So in answer to your question: yes, one can use another language after working with Python. It just takes a few years for the euphoria to rub off. ;)

]]> By: Daniel http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-15878 Daniel Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:45:10 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-15878 I agree with the "feel disgusted with other languages" part. In my 17 years of professional coding, I had to use a lot of languages, and since I started using Python 4 years ago, no other language brings me the same satisfaction. I am porting some code I wrote 5 years ago (C++ with Lua embedded), and my guess is the total project size will be 5% of the original (no typo, really 95% less). The efficiency will be severely hit, but after it's working, it'll only be a matter of making a simple ctypes binding to some C optimized functions to get back to the original speed. In summary, I just love Python. I agree with the “feel disgusted with other languages” part. In my 17 years of professional coding, I had to use a lot of languages, and since I started using Python 4 years ago, no other language brings me the same satisfaction.

I am porting some code I wrote 5 years ago (C++ with Lua embedded), and my guess is the total project size will be 5% of the original (no typo, really 95% less). The efficiency will be severely hit, but after it’s working, it’ll only be a matter of making a simple ctypes binding to some C optimized functions to get back to the original speed.

In summary, I just love Python.

]]> By: Jayne http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-15874 Jayne Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:29:34 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-15874 I have to say I agree with your post. I love Apple, I have both a mac and PC at home and have to say that the PC is rarely used, mainly to retrieve old photos or when my husband is hogging the mac! I have to say I agree with your post. I love Apple, I have both a mac and PC at home and have to say that the PC is rarely used, mainly to retrieve old photos or when my husband is hogging the mac!

]]> By: Sykora http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/2009/09/15/is-python-the-apple-of-programming-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-15862 Sykora Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:25:30 +0000 http://www.heikkitoivonen.net/blog/?p=916#comment-15862 I simply had to comment on this post, because for me, this analogy is totally incongruous. While I love python, and use it for almost everything I do, I'm heavily prejudiced against apple, for various reasons, usually business practices but also technical decisions. In this regard, I have to agree with Paddy3118. I simply had to comment on this post, because for me, this analogy is totally incongruous. While I love python, and use it for almost everything I do, I’m heavily prejudiced against apple, for various reasons, usually business practices but also technical decisions.

In this regard, I have to agree with Paddy3118.

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